January 24th, 2010 | 
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One of the subjects that was suggested by Saylah of Mystic Worlds (and one that I am sure we will end up using) was to have a show were we had another round table discussion about what each of the guests looks for in Star Trek Online (STO) and in Eve Online. This would, of course, necessitate using guests that have played, one or the other or both. Fortunately we know people (including members of the No Prisoners, No Mercy Team) who fall along all three of the delineations.
One of the factors in what a gamer looks for in a new game may very well be not finding it in the last game they played. It was not that long ago that I read an article about marketing mmos that pointed out that when someone leaves your game, you don’t just lose a subscriber, you gain a detractor. That is certainly true – at least in many cases.
Sometimes people leave a game because they are bored with it.
However, leaving a game because you are bored with it doesn’t necessarily mean there is something wrong with the game you have left. Perhaps it has run the course of your interest, or you just don’t feel like leveling up yet another alt. “Bored” can come in several shades of meaning where games are concerned. You can be bored with a game mechanic, bored with the content, and bored with the boors.
In Aion Online I left purely because of some of the game mechanics used. Both Star Trek Online and Aion Online make use of quests that can be repeated. The difference between the two is that in Star Trek Online not only do the parameters of the quest/mission change, so do the settings themselves. This is one of the benefits of using instanced content – the setting change be changed every time it is entered. procedural generation can be used, generating content algorithmically rather than manually, creating a level that changes whenever the game needs it to, the player needs it to or both. Hellgate London made use of this technique extensively to keep content fresh. There is a nice discussion of procedural generation here. In the end, it was because Aion Onlines repeatable quests were about nothing more than “go kill 10 more rats” that bored me to distraction.
Now and then a case presents itelf where the market presents the player with a new opportunity in the same genre. This, of course, is one of the benefits of competition in the market place – it can, and often does, drive improvements in the product being marketed as the manufacturers of the product vie for both the consumer’s attention and dollars. A limiting factor in this particular case occurs when the product addresses what is a limited market. Many is the time that a large manufacturer doesn’t address the needs of a smaller market because by definition that market is limited, and in turn limits viability and profitability – and so we have what gamers have come to call the “niche market”. In this particular case Star Trek Online has an intellectual property (IP) that may very well expand the number of players that are interested in a game with an outer space theme. Caution should also be taken any time we consider that a given market is only “so big”. If nothing else, one of the lessons that the success of World of Warcraft taught us is that the market can surprise us by being bigger than our estimation of it.
On rare occasion, as the No Prisoners, No Mercy Team is seeing in the case of Eve Online versus Star Trek Online, detractors come out of the woodwork, not because they have left a given game, but rather because they still play it. As I have always said, hell hath no fury like a gamer whose game has been scorned. Lately we have received an increasing number of spams by individuals who purport to be Eve Online players (they may just be people who simply don’t like us…in that case the line starts to the left, make sure to take a number). The general nature of the spams (or so I am told – I never check the spam filter, I just hit the “delete” button) when we write about Star Trek Online often turns to those individuals who feel it is necessary to enlighten us as to all that is wrong with STO. The webmaster tells me that the missives go on to attempt to convince us how much superior one product is over the other, and that a truly unenlightened being wouldn’t dare play a game of which the author of the email does not approve.
I will borrow an analogy from Tobold and say that I don’t like cooked carrots (it changes the flavor). That doesn’t mean the carrot is bad simply because I don’t like the flavor after it is cooked. Likewise there is nothing intrinsically wrong with either Star Trek Online nor Eve Onine. However, in the case of Eve Online, one of the lessons to be had from games such as Warhammer Online come in to play: Mark Jacobs pointed out that the major game mechanic that embodied the reason for Warhammer Online was the realm versus realm combat. What I saw, while I was playing the game were the many players who took the path of least resistance and spent their time in scenarios (battlegrounds for all you World of Warcraft players out there). In the end, no matter how Mythic Entertainment tried to entice players out of the scenarios, they couldn’t control how their customers made use of their product. Likewise the developers at CCP may be incredibly talented, but short of actions that would drive away many of their long time customers there is no way to control the way Eve Online players use their product. Beau Turkey once wrote an interesting article where he maintained that Eve Online was a pve game (I will try and find the url later). Even if CCP did want the game to be geared toward pve there is very little that can be done to keep it that way if their customers chose to do otherwise. As a senior producer friend of my said, “gamers will always find the path of least resistance.”
In the end there are many games likeEve Online where the developers either can’t, won’t, or don’t care to even attempt to change the way their product is used. And that is often where the “bored with the boors” enters the picture. The odd little side effect of that particular quality, that shade of the word “boredom” comes into play when those individuals who have chosen one path in their pursuit of happiness feel the need to enlighten those “poor souls” who “just don’t understand.” We often see individuals who have not only been busy hurling handfuls of crap over into our virtual back yard when they see things in a different light than we, but sometimes include their e-peen measuring stick…to which I can only reply, “we’re nuns,and we don’t care about your e-peen”. I might also add that some of those measuring sticks are very, very small.
See you online,
Julie Whitefeather
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Ugh! I’m not spam, nor a troll — just a casual reader of the VW blog feed… but this is the second time I’ve caught you guys (red-handed!
) of using EVE-Online in an analogy/argument that just doesn’t work.
You compared EVE-Online’s PvP mechanics to WAR’s…. they couldn’t be further from the truth. The problem with WAR wasn’t that it put too much into the player’s hands… it’s the exact opposite. Despite promising a world of WAR, all that players really could do was … flip keeps. There was no emotional investment in the game at all. That emotional investment is key… and in WAR, it just wasn’t there.
This isn’t a PvP vs PvE thing… great PvE games can invest you like no other (witness EQ, WOW).
But EVE is fundamentally different. There players can have HUGE impacts. And, it works. EVE’s setting records for subscriptions on a regular basis while WAR is, at best, dying slowly.
Just my $.02. You guys seem to have it out for us capsuleers…! We’re not that bad!
@ Ben: First Warhammer is not dieing simply because you don’t like the game. Second the analogy works…merely because you get miffed when a new kid on the block dares to trod the hallowed soil (or space if you will) of Eve Online doesn’t mean that the article is “wrong” or “doesn’t work”
Also, like a poor marksman you have missed the point and that is a quick look at why people quit games, and most especially the different shades of the word “Boredom.”
While we appreciate your opinion the simple fact of the matter is that you haven’t caught anyone “red handed” at doing anything more than trodding on capsuleer toes.
Do we have it out for Eve Online? Nothing could be further from the truth. We like the game and while no one here still plays the game (at least not that I am aware of) it is not the developers who are at fault for factors that will no doubt deter new gamers to the mmo community – rather it is the capsuleers themselves.
Wow Sr. Julie,
Your response was one of the longer ways of saying, “nah-aaaah”
You want to try again and actually refute what the poster said?
So far your response is .. your wrong, you missed the point (care to expand?), you didn’t catch us red-handed ..
How bout some mention of his argument on PvP?
Hey Tom…read the article again (I did) it doesn’t look to me that the discussion has anything to do with pvp. It isn’t even mentioned anywhere the the post. Seems to me the point to bringing up WAR is when the developers of a game want the game used one way and the players us it another.
As for Eve Sister Julie seems to feel that the veteran players using the game one way are likely to drive away new customers who want to use it another way. If the Ben want to make a different point write is own article.
As for my own feelings about eve I don’t give a shit about it one way or the other. I’m with Sister Frances on this one. I don’t need to play Eve – I already have a college degree.
Webmaster – there have been alot of changes in Eve Online lately. CCP has put in alot of changes and added new player experiences. On one of your own shows (I think it was 51) Tipa from west karana talked about the new player experience where you learn to scan with probes and are given the tools to do it.
@ Ben and Tom: there is no “pvp versus pve” issue here. The issue is an example of how players may chose to use a game one way even though the developers want it done another way.
@Webmaster: Marie is right – there have been alot of changes where new player experiences are concerned.
As for me I will stick with my star trek online account. I can think of better ways to spend my fifteen dollars a month than spending it on eve. You know, like getting my teeth drilled.
@ Webmaster: You should try eve online again. It has changed since you first tried it. The people who decided to prey on others don’t represent all of them.
@ Everyone else: Simply because the content on this web site is also carred on Virgin Worlds that doesn’t mean Brent is responsible for it. He is kind enough to carry our shows and our website. We are solely responsible for our content.
Julie
Try eve again? I have better things to do than that…like pick my feet.
Don’t make me get tough with you.
@ Webmaster: You want tough? I WILL SHOW YOU TOUGH!
@Julie:
“it is not the developers who are at fault for factors that will no doubt deter new gamers to the mmo community – rather it is the capsuleers themselves.”
Hi Julie,
I’m not sure the recent spike in gank-publicity is necessarily having a overall negative effect on EVE’s new player retention. It’s quite possible the noise around Hulkageddon will have a net beneficial effect. If CCP wanted to publicise their USPs to new players as the Star Trek publicity machine reaches peak volume, the confluence of Great War III and Helicity’s Hulkageddon II was perfectly timed. What’s unpleasant for some players could be good for the game overall. A solution that salves the distress for strongly risk-averse players could have a negative impact on a quieter part of the playerbsse.
I think a developer would certainly be “at fault” if they were given the opportunity to influence player behaviour for the benefit of players/The Vision, to perceive a need, and still do nothing. However, we don’t know the numbers, the impact on retention, the unsubscription rate for those affected or merely fearful. Nor do we have a recent update on CCP’s vision in this area since the Concord/status hit changes in 08.
We do have a fair amount of noise from commentators and forum posters muttering that “something must be done,” – I think there various CSM motions to similar effect. Once the CSM has met CCP, discussed the hisecPvE gank-issue, I hope we will understand more.
Until then, and until we see EVE’s usergraphs sinking faster in the wake of STO than the post-expansion slump explains, we won’t know much. Hopefully CCP will find out before it’s too late, and EVE finally does start dying.
@ Michael: Some very interesting points. I don’t see Eve dying any time soon. I have ready many “Something must be done” posts and as far as the CSM goes all they did was agree to “study it further.” Do you happen to have any cites you can post that have said “usergraphs”? I would be interested in seeing some numbers.
Julie
I’m just going to throw this out here. I don’t think CCP ever really had a ‘master plan’ for player experience. They built a game world that has elements of PvE and PvP throughout (highsec, lowsec, nulsec dictates the level of PvP expected, enemy spawns in asteroid belts that increase both your wallet through bounties and security status).
They implemented a risk versus reward system by placing larger money opportunities out in low/nulsec and let the players have at it. From CCP’s viewpoint, they have made a universe. They made this world have extremely complicated rules for completing tasks, rather than implement rules that dictate what you can and cannot do. What direction that universe takes, is entirely up to the players. CCP has let the economy in the hands of the players, from inventing and manufacturing of items /ships, to the logistical side of hauling the items from one place to another to be purchased. They let the lawless areas of EVE be completely controlled by players and their corporations.
This is why I’m confused when you say that the players are “using” the game a different way than the developers had intended. When an MMO is a sandbox, how is there a direction you are supposed to take?
@ Sr. Julie:
First off… a little confession (no pun intended give your blog title!) I <3 you guys and am really not trying to be argumentative. Well… actually I am, but not in a negative way. I'm all about constructive disagreement
You said: "Also, like a poor marksman you have missed the point and that is a quick look at why people quit games, and most especially the different shades of the word “Boredom.”"
This is a good place to pick up the conversation, as EVE-O is anything "but" a game in which players are bored. Maybe you are — but EVE is setting subscription records on a regular basis (for itself), and just recently recorded it's peak concurrent user record.
Why? Because they've created a meaningful world in which players can interact and have an impact on each other.
On the flipside, WAR promised… well, WAR … but delivered a static world in which — you guessed it — all too many people got bored and returned to their MMOs of choice.
See?
I'm not claiming that EVE is the world's best MMO by any means. The "barriers to entry" are ASTOUNDING and I can personally attest to the fact — I have a number of friends that I WISH played EVE, but don't because they're … frankly intimidated. But the thing about EVE is once you get past that barrier to entry — and get comfortable with the game — it offers a dynamic world that no other MMO can match.
It's not about measuring onself, or one's 3peen — it's about measuring the impact you can have on the "persistent world" that you inhabit. On that mark, EVE does quite well.
Oh — and “In the end there are many games likeEve Online where the developers either can’t, won’t, or don’t care to even attempt to change the way their product is used.”
I’m just wondering how updated you are on EVE-O. CCP just implemented a RADICAL change to the way that sovereignty is captured in 0.0 space to do EXACTLY this — change the way their product is used. And by most measures — it’s been successful. More people are logging into EVE than ever before (re: concurrent peak user record) to play out the 0.0 game.
Just my $.02 again
For the record, I COMPLETELY agree with the article’s premise — I just disagree with the use of EVE as an analogy / example for the argument.
@ The World: I have decided the following:
1.) Warhammer Online is the best game I have ever played
2.) Eve Online sucks much it could suck a golf ball through fifty feet of garden hose and most importantly…
3.) Helcity Boson is my hero and I think CCP should name a planet somewhere after him.
Oh…and
4.) I will have another beer.
I like #4.
Not so big a fan of #1-#3 though
Again, I agree with you guys on many points… just not the use of EVE-O as the lynchpin of your argument, as it doesn’t hold up.
I *was* a big fan of WAR… but just couldn’t stand the monotonous, grindy, pointless RvR. If they had just used the DAOC formula. What was they thinkin’!
@Julie,: ‘I have ready many “Something must be done” posts and as far as the CSM goes all they did was agree to “study it further.’
There were certainly plenty of threads in C&P and General Discussion about Hulkageddon II. I just flipped through the formal CSM Assembly Hall forum, there are a modest number of threads on the issues around it, but not as many as I thought there would be. It’s all quite muted.
The CSM debated insurance issues around suicide ganking at the Jan 3rd meeting, according to Teadaze’s minutes – http://teadaze.net/GalNet/. I’m not sure if a coherent “Buff mining ships against hisec ganking” thread has been brought up with strong enough support to make it onto their agenda. There seems to be a separate “insurance rebalance” issue too crossing into this issue.
The Quarter Economic Newsletters usually begin with a “demographics” section that includes a subscriber graph and some commentary. The most recent version, Q3 2009 can be found via http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=707. 300,000 was the figure being discussed at Fanfest which looks to match the graph data, which only covers to the end of September.
It’s a shame live data isn’t available, unlike the player concurrency numbers (tracked by Chribba’s http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility), but I expect marketing wouldn’t like that.
@Ben: ‘CCP just implemented a RADICAL change to the way that sovereignty is captured in 0.0 space to do EXACTLY this — change the way their product is used. And by most measures — it’s been successful. More people are logging into EVE than ever before (re: concurrent peak user record) to play out the 0.0 game.’
It’s hard to judge what’s influencing the current PCU figures. There are lots of _bad_ things happening at the moment. The nullsec changes (which I’m not involved in) were very buggy initially, there are all manner of scaling issues (terrible lag in large fleet battles again, lots of node-deaths), and global server stability is poor at the moment (an MSSQL db glitch issue, we think). Hulkageddon 2 was there to scare the risk-averse.
On the other hand, there’s good post-expansion publicity, and those £3 first month deals on Steam. EVE players are weird.
First, this thread has strayed so far off the original topic that it couldn’t find it’s way back with a map and a compus.
Still, I think that the above seems closer to the truth, based on what I have read and seen, than anything else. The question becomes can pve and pvp co-exist in harmony? The answer in my opinion is a loud resounding no. Over the weekend I went back and took a look at Tobolds last year April fools post. It put me in mind of when Ultima Online and then Origins really did divide the world between pve and pvp. The pvp side of the world rapidly became deserted.
As for me, there are two things I don’t engage in and both are related: high stakes poker and high stakes pvp.
It also seems to me that the developers at CCP have their game where they want it. Read back a year ago about all they say they were going to do about suicide ganking and how massively said it was a thing of the past. It was, to be blunt, so much hogwash. Where pvp is concerned Eve Online is no doubt a great game. Where pve is concerned it just seems to me that CCP doesn’t give a shit – but that’s just me.
@Webmaster: “The question becomes can pve and pvp co-exist in harmony? The answer in my opinion is a loud resounding no. Over the weekend I went back and took a look at Tobolds last year April fools post. It put me in mind of when Ultima Online and then Origins really did divide the world between pve and pvp. The pvp side of the world rapidly became deserted.”
The counter-example to that is EVE itself. At any time a substantial proportion of its players are engaged in “pve” pursuits – mining, or mission running. And 300,000+ accounts say that, right now at least, it works for enough of the people that they enjoy it enough to keep paying. It’s not “harmony” certainly, more a grumpy, crotchey, state of dynamic equilibrium, managed risk.
“Read back a year ago about all they say they were going to do about suicide ganking and how massively said it was a thing of the past. It was, to be blunt, so much hogwash.”
IIRC the main thing CCP suggested they were going to implement, but never did, was the Concordokken insurance change. That never it to the test server, I think, though I recall the sec penalty changes and Concord response time changes were thoroughly tested by the gankers and pirates – some of their complaints in the forums were very amusing. The intent was never to prevent all ganking – if Massively reported that they were inaccurate.
“Where pve is concerned it just seems to me that CCP doesn’t give a shit – but that’s just me.”
There are many good reasons to say that – the mission system is obsolete, cranky, inflexible, and difficult for the content team to work worth, has suffered a variety of false-starts makeovers (COSMOS, etc). It might be argued that there’s been along-term under-investment in that area because it was “just about good enough to work”. Mining mechanics haven’t changed in years, with the Rorqual and Orca being the last substantial content added to the system.
But, really, the in-flow of effort, and out-flow of materials from mining and missioning activities are very close to CCP’s heart. I think they care PvE, and the players participating in it, a great deal. And what they care about is delivering what we signed up for – what they promised us. A dark universe, with danger lurking behind every stargate. Where every ship undocked should be regarded as potentially lost. Where concern for personal safety over greed can reward the cautious.
In short, Aura warned us wouldn’t be safe. It would be counter to the game’s core design to make it _perfectly_ safe. I, personally, don’t want it to the safe. I enjoy knowing that, at any moment, a buzzing swarm of Goons might descend on my mining barges and reduce them to space dust. That, if someone comes and steals from a can in my mission, and I idiotically decide to shoot back, I’m pretty likely to die in an oxygen fire.
Because, despite my preference for “carebear” activities, it’s a rush, it’s pixels, it’s the game I signed up for.
Now for me, there’s also definitely room in there for shades of grey, of sensible compromise between the adrenalin junkies and calmer heads. But, ultimately, EVE has always been the wrong game for someone who wants to play in total safety.
All too often, you guys are a little rude towards people that disagree with you in your comments.
Not sure what the deal is — but the discussion here seems to be pretty on-point (re: what causes people to leave games, what’s ‘boring’, etc.)
BTW, it’s spelled “compass”. ;p
@ Ben: Unfortunately it has been too long an tiring a day to think of a witty comeback…call it a defensive mechanism.
@Michael: Wow…what can I say but I think you, my friend, have it sussed.
p.s. By the end of a long day I’m lucky to find the keyboard let alone find all the typos. Thanks for setting my cumpas strait…
@ Ben: Our webmaster tends to be a bit…well…gruff at times. I think now would be a good time to dock the webmaster’s pay if the webmaster actually got paid.
As for me, well there is the whole “no prisoners, no mercy” schtick. In some few cases it’s simply a matter of rightous indignation.
Julie
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