Most people have heard the expression “that stinks out loud”. If you haven’t, now you have – my mother and grandmother used to use it all the time. It’s what I call a “grandma-ism.” Forewarned is forearmed so the old adage goes. So here is the warning. If you are a big fan of Star Trek Online (STO) and don’t want to read anything bad about the game read no further.
You have been warned
Now I will continue for those of you who aren’t on the floor.
Say what?
What I mean is this is the point at which most of the forum trolls extol the virtues of “fine whine” (and I don’t mean daddy I want to go to Disney Land). Ask the typical person who plays on the Klingon side (think horde for all you World of Warcraft players out there) about Federation players who pvp and you will begin to hear how we are all stupid, foolish, unexperienced, and every other denigrating adjective in the book. The fact of the matter is that I have two graduate degrees and a 126 IQ and I am far from being stupid. I am also not inexperienced at pvp, having been engaging in pvp in mmos since there were mmos in which to participate in pvp (some time I will tell you of the player who killed me in pvp and upon finding out I was a nun yelled “oh no I killed a nun I’m going to hell”)
At this point I should clarify for those who might not be regular listeners of the No Prisoners No Mercy show that everyone on staff here are fans of Star Trek, Star Trek Online, and Cryptic Studios. We also like the game…alot. In fact I purchased a lifetime subscription and still don’t consider it a waste of money. In fact because I care about STO and Cryptic Studios is why I point this all out….
When it comes to “in space” pvp Cryptic Studios not only dropped the ball, it went down into the gutter and dropped into the sewer.
Lets start by taking a look at a typical score for the evening. Note this is Tier 3. First you will see all the damage done for the blue team on the left. While the zeros in this case are, no doubt, from players who check “hide” when their turn comes up, this is usually not the only case. There are many times when you will see two or three players doing damage and zeros by the rest of the names. This is the result of players who have come to embody the famous words “abandon all hope ye who enter.” They know, as do most of those interested in pvp on the Federation side, that pvp is no longer a place you go to enjoy yourself. It is a place where you go for fast leveling and fast medals to get the best gear for your ship. True there are a few valiant souls who are still stupid enough to put up a fight (my character is one of those with actual damage).
But why the utter hopelessness you might ask yourself?
Lets look at the ebra…I mean epeen…I mean damage chart again. How nice for us, by the way, that Cryptic has furnished those interested in PvP with the bane of our existence – the damage meter. Look at the damage done by those still trying on the Federation side (on the left). Now compare that to the damage being done on the Klingon side on the right. A rough comparison of the ability of Klingons to do enough damage to get through Federation shields would be like someone cutting through a paper bag with a flame thrower.
Even those on the Federation side who care about pvp and care deeply have begun to give up any hope that this aspect of the game will be balanced any time sooner then the turn of the next century. The executive producer, Craig Zinkievich, told us all he wanted pvp in Star Trek Online to be about tactics and not about a dog fight.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but since everyone probably knows it anyway, the fight in pvp (at least in space) in Star Trek Online is, for the most part, already decided before the game has begun. But there is another factor at work there other than merely bad pvp for the Federation side – after all, on the Federation side we still have the pve, and belive me, the pve in Star Trek Online is nothing short of Fantastic.
I pity the Klingons
Even though the Klingons can grind my Federation character in to the dirt I pity them. Why? Because pvp is all they have. Oh sure, you can go out to the “Kahless Expanse” and complete the one pve quest (one, count it, one). If the pvp in Star Trek Online remains as unbalanced as it is, the Klingon side, and pvp can easily become deserted. Don’t think so? Ask anyone who has ever played in the PvP arenas in Everquest 2. Sure they were a novelty at first. Now the pvp arena’s in EQ2 are completely deserted.
In short, as it sits right now, pvp in space in Star Trek Online is worthless.
And more is the pity is that this is where one of the Strengths of the game should have been. The saddest cut of all, is that it doesn’t need to be this way. The game mechanics are all there for this to be some of the best space combat pvp on the internet. Eve Online? Yes, I still subscribe. Yes I have done pvp in Eve Online. But just like a frequent guest and I discussed off microphone, when it comes to one on one pvp in Eve Online the outcome is already decided before the first shot is fired, and as Mr. Zinkievich pointed out, no one wants to lose their ship after taking 80 hours to earn it.
Mind you we aren’t naive enough to say something stupid like “Gee the game needed more work before it was published.” First, that is asking Cryptic to repeat the most expensive month of development to begin with. That, and more than likely that request would have gone over with their publisher, Atari, as well as a request, “Pardon me Mr. Publisher? Would you mind if I shoved a porcupine up your ass? I can only hope that there will be time to fix pvp before it becomes a ghost town. Think that can’t happen? Ask Mythic.
See you online,
Julie Whitefeather
Nice twist on the title
Are you surprised, though? Cryptic’s PvP has always been abysmal. It was utter garbage in Champs Online. As STO is nothing more than a Star Trek skinned version of Champs Online, were you expecting better? PvP is just not Cyptic’s forte… or, perhaps more accurately, not just “not a forte”, but something that they simply can’t manage to do with even a hint of competence.
It would be like expecting Global Agenda to have good PvE
Where the minds do not meet here is at the word “competence”. Everyone on staff here thinks the staff at Cryptic are very talented. The game mechanics are all there, the tools are all there – it is simply a matter of balancing the game and sometimes that takes time. Where it does need to start, however, IS WITH COMMUNICATION ABOUT THE SUBJECT AND THAT SHOULD BE TWO WAY (all caps not aimed at Ben, but at Cryptic.
I haven’t played Global Agenda. I don’t know if anyone else who writes here or helps in the back ground has.
Julie
Where the minds do not meet here is at the word “competence”. Everyone on staff here thinks the staff at Cryptic are very talented. The game mechanics are all there, the tools are all there – it is simply a matter of balancing the game and sometimes that takes time. Where it does need to start, however, IS WITH COMMUNICATION ABOUT THE SUBJECT AND THAT SHOULD BE TWO WAY (all caps not aimed at Ben, but at Cryptic.
I haven’t played Global Agenda. I don’t know if anyone else who writes here or helps in the back ground has.
Julie
Before I begin, I just want to say that I love you guys. I’ve been listening to your podcast since I started playing Warhammer and I’ve enjoyed listening to every show … regardless of being snubbed after trying to get in touch with you gals in the past. You are great. Now, pleasantries aside, let’s get to the meat of the matter….
It has been my experience that the team members with zeros are usually the players who’ve zoned into the combat as it ended. This happens to me all the time. It looks to me like the start of the scenario began 2 Klinks vs 3 Feds with another 2 able to zone in before the lock and able to score some damage before the end. By then the damage was done.
Klingons have nothing … I repeat NOTHING … to do in Star Trek BUT PVP. That is how they level their characters. When you spend that much time doing something Federation characters don’t have to do and likely don’t do very often, you are going to have groups of people who are able to work together and do some damage. It’s no different than running 2 or 3 full groups in Warhammer Online only to get destroyed by a single talented group.
I have experienced PVP from both sides and I will say that I have won playing on the Fed side far more often than I do on the Klingon side. It’s my experience that shields are far tougher on the Federation ships, the weapons are as strong and when you work together as a team that usually outnumbers the Klingons every match, you will find you win more often than you lose.
I’ve been on that losing side in its battle to survive. I have been a part of a 5 man killing team laying waste together as a team to target a single Federation ship together only to have it survive, healed and then turn on us with their team to destroy us all one by one.
If Cryptic wanted tactics in STO PVP they wouldn’t have created a bunch of mini map scenarios in which everyone sits in the middle and shoots one another in the face at point blank range. I would rather an entire PVP centric sector in say … the Neutral Zone (which by the way, Cryptic has said in the past in various news articles across the web is where PVP was going to occur … far from PVE) where players can complete PVP quests and resource gathering and have that ability for some open field battles. I don’t mean a place for ganking PVE players so those haters out there can just stop right there. I mean a place where you enter to PVP with meaning. No unjust rewards PVE players feel left out on, just a good ole fashioned “LOW SEC” area in space.
I understand your frustration as in that battle it can be made to appear the Klingons were unstoppable, but in the battle to just keep PVP around amongst all the PVE player hatred I see on the boards, posts like these just fan the flames.
I for one would like to see an average of winnings in PVP. One poorly played PVP match score card hardly depicts proof of a normal PVP episode in Star Trek Online. I am sorry you had a bad time, but there are plenty of people left in the game who still enjoy it. They are all over the boards fighting to keep PVP from being kicked from the server by PVE friendly foes and the fight continues for some additional PVP content most PVE players feel is a waste of resources for a portion of the game they do not want to exist.
Here is a 197 post thread on the official forums where you can see the battle between PVP and PVE gamers is waging. There are more threads like this one all over the boards.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=117774
Frustration aside, help PVP survive and get fixed. Provide some positive feedback, some potential fixes and stop with the hate. It’s already hard enough to have an educated discussion on those boards without having people point to articles like this one as proof and point in their arguments.
I viewed the score card wrong. I looks like it was more like 5 Klingons against 3 Federation players in the beginning of that match with two more Fed characters zoning in to score a bit right before the end. It’s not often Klingons outnumber Federation in a PVP match. The rest likely zoned in as the match ended and that is why they did not post any damage for the score card. It is no wonder the Feds lost.
The first problem becomes in any attempt to fix pvp, as we discussed with Bill Roper in relation to Champions Online, it is far better to boost the abilities of one player than cut back the abilities of the stronger class in an effort to level the playing field. Doing it the other way around will cause a furor among the players who are used to the “I Win” button. In my experience it is not a matter of who comes in first, last, early or late – it is simply a matter of unbalanced pvp.
There are many approaches to balance in pvp, and with the way they have the game mechanics set now there is little doubt that the only approach left is to make one class stronger than another and weaker against others. For example, the Star Trek lore necessitates birds of prey having cloaking ability. Right now, however, you can grow old in a match while Klingons try and outwait you. The only way to counter the problem is to give one side a cloak detection ability (“Captain they’re venting tachyon particles”).
PvP is a huge joke — I feel like a Federation Clay Pigeon at the daily Klingon Champion Shoot-off — I have played a lot of PvP and can say that given the ease Klingon’s chew up Federation shields it seems like something is slightly skewed. I have seen multiple Federation ships (of all classes including myself) more than once on different maps at different times blasting away at a single Klingon target for what seemed like minutes with little or no effect. Volley after volley of torpedoes, Phasers and the kitchen sink all to no avail. It’s so bad that sometime you just don’t believe it when a Klingon ship blows up — you think — awe they cloaked during battle while hiding behind that exploding Federation ship. Oh well, I enjoy PvE and Fleet Actions even more, so I have pretty much given up on PvP.
“PvP is a huge joke — I feel like a Federation Clay Pigeon at the daily Klingon Champion Shoot-off” – Gene
Now THAT is FUNNY (even if it wasn’t intended to be). Fortunately a recent update to the game by Cryptic provided the perfect solution to your woes – Federation vs. Federation space combat. Klingons getting you down? Does it seem like you can’t win for losing? Fight other Federation ships in space a combat exercise (thats how Cryptic explains Federations vs. Federation). Problem solved! You never have to fight Klingons again! (we don’t)